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Supporting learning and development – for you and your team – is something that’s important but not urgent, so it can be easy for it to get swept aside.
To learn how to make time for this work, we heard from Rachel Collingridge (previously Head of Engineering at Xero and soon-to-be Head of Engineering at CoGo). Rachel believes in the power of building good habits around learning, and her team members at Xero told us about how well she created a growth culture there – so she was kind enough to share her top tips for building a learning habit. Watch the talk below and find the slides here! The transcript is also at the end of this article.
Rachel Collingridge is a classically trained musician who was accidentally drawn into software development in the late 1990s. After 18 years of crafting code, mainly for large UK institutions, she transitioned to a “post-technical” phase of engineering leadership at Powershop. She joined Xero in 2018 and after 5 years there (most recently as Head of Engineering for Platform Engineering), she’s now moving to CoGo to be their Head of Engineering.
Outside of the office, she enjoys long trail runs with her husband and Jasper the rescue dog, spending time with her children before they fly the nest, and an occasional toot on a saxophone or clarinet.
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To support this community, we organize knowledge-sharing & networking events on a range of topics, mostly focused on the people side of leadership. We aim to make the tech industry more welcoming by creating a diverse and equitable community of peers and role models.
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[00:00:00] Lauren Peate: Lovely. Great. So I'll just briefly introduce Rachel. She has had a wonderful and varied career. Everything from being a classically trained musician, and then ending up in software development. Most recently she was at Xero as their Head of Engineering and she is the incoming Head of Engineering at CoGo which does some really great work around the carbon tracking space.
[00:00:27] Lauren Peate: And outside of the office, she does long trail runs, she's got a rescue dog named Jasper and spends time with her family, her children, and her partner. And I can say I, I got to see her speak recently at the DevNxt conference. And so I know she's a really amazing speaker. And with that I will stop my sharing and, and pass it over to you, Rachel.
[00:00:53] Rachel Collingridge: Cool. Thanks. So thank you for that lovely introduction. I have to explain before I start my slides because I'm in a period of what you might call fun employment is what I understand. So I've left my recent role and I'm taking some lovely time off before I start Cogo. That means instead of a flash Mac book, I've got one of my kids' old Chromebooks, which is what I'm talking on now. So I can't easily adjust my pronouns to she her. And I can't give you a background that looks better than this travesty of my office slash music room that you you see behind me, but I'm gonna shrink that now and share my slides.
[00:01:34] Rachel Collingridge: And Ooh, this all looks a bit different. Let's give this a go. Cool. Can we see that? I'm hoping to answer. Yes, we can. Yeah. Excellent. Thank you. So look, firstly you know, thanks to Lauren and the team at multitudes for creating the series it's super exciting to be the first person to kick it off.
[00:01:59] Rachel Collingridge: So yes, feedback's gonna be really important. Learning, I think, seems like such a great topic to start with, because I know we all need to learn, all the time, about everything. So now, with any talk, that talk is gonna be product of experiences and environments of the speaker, of me. So I'm going to even, I've had a prey of of my life.
[00:02:20] Rachel Collingridge: I'm gonna whiz through that because that, that will provide a little bit more information about about this topic and, and where I'm coming from on it. So, I could describe myself as a lifelong learner. I've had a 25 year career in delivering software. I was a developer for a really long time and then moved into the leadership space.
[00:02:41] Rachel Collingridge: But that was after the classical clarinet degree and the musicology master's degree. And I completely unexpectedly got into being a developer. So, as I started in 1997 that was visual basic for desktop app development. So, that was some stuff to learn, back then. Moved on of course, to, to dot net, C sharp, web apps and API development. At a short but glorious spell of time, I like to think, as a Ruby on Rails developer at Powershop, but then moved on into what I'll describe as being an engineering manager. So having an engineer, having engineers report into me and later being a manager of managers. So, so your, your dev manager and your head of engineering roles and each of those points on this career timeline is a point of extreme learning.
[00:03:36] Rachel Collingridge: Most of what I'll be talking about today will be around sort of knowledge work and career stuff. But as Lauren alluded to actually, you know, with, with having a life, as we all do, learning is really happening all the time. I've learned buy a house, I've learned to be a parent of small children.
[00:03:55] Rachel Collingridge: I'm still learning to be a parent to teenagers. It's gonna take, take a while. I ran, I went from not running at all to learning how to run a hundred K ultra marathon. I have passed a psychology paper recently and I learned how to be a saxophone player in a covers band. So yeah, lots of learning.
[00:04:14] Rachel Collingridge: It's gonna be framed up around careers today, but yeah, it's, it's always on my mind. How do I learn? How might I improve what it is I do. So I've made a few assumptions about who you are and about why you might be here. I'm gonna assume that all of you learners and you, you perhaps wanna learn a bit more about how to inform your own learning and your own learning habits.
[00:04:41] Rachel Collingridge: I think lots of you are gonna be leaders of some sort seniors or managers or coaches, and you'll be thinking about your teams and the people around you and how to guide and support them. And I've got this sort of function of lobbyists here. I'd love that you all can be a lobbyist in your workplace for a great learning culture.
[00:05:00] Rachel Collingridge: You can advocate and sponsor for your people and lobby for change as well. If you don't have the learning environment that you want. So that's who I think you are. Let's move on to what we're gonna talk about today. Five points. I've got a slide for each few bullet points and a little bit of reading for each that might help you.
[00:05:22] Rachel Collingridge: And then we move into Q and A. So let's, let's get going, always learning all the time. I think I've even already said this phrase you know, you might have a computer science degree or you might have been at a boot camp. You might have done an AWS course. Well, it's formal training, but I think we, we never want to underestimate what we, we could and should be learning on that on the job.
[00:05:53] Rachel Collingridge: And this is from someone who spent their whole career in software development, learning on the job. There's just a huge amount of learning that happens beyond that formal training. And how are you gonna build that learning in? Well, I think, you know, reading books and reading documentation for what you're doing is really important.
[00:06:13] Rachel Collingridge: And again, I've got the suggested reading that, that comes up observing what other people do. whether it's good or bad and you want to emulate it or never do that. It's really important. And asking questions is huge too. I will forever be grateful for, to Rudy YOKA who was a Oracle developer and my first job.
[00:06:36] Rachel Collingridge: And I asked him all of the questions about PLC call. He was a very lovely impatient man. So I'd love that everyone could feel free to ask questions of those experts around them, such a huge way of learning. I'm a big one for experimenting. And if there is anyone on this call, who's recently worked with me at zero.
[00:06:58] Rachel Collingridge: You might have placed bets on whether I'm going to say this phrase or not. Here it is. It's a, it's a paraphrase from Nelson Mandela and it's, if you're not winning, you're learning. So this idea of experimenting, giving something a go, trying it out, didn't work, you know, more than you knew before. So you're learning.
[00:07:17] Rachel Collingridge: And so that is what the opposite of winning is. And honestly, in the office, I say that probably about 20 times a day. and lastly, the, the, the point on this slide is that don't forget to think of beyond those technical and domain skills that are important for the role that you're probably doing your core skills and your leadership skills are, are really huge.
[00:07:43] Rachel Collingridge: So let's, let's move on now to. But a suggested reading. I'll talk about why these books are here. We're talking about always learning all the time. And the, the book mindset talks a lot about growth mindsets as opposed to fixed mindset a growth mindset. Is a learning mindset. Next mindset is not.
[00:08:04] Rachel Collingridge: So I think you'll learn a lot about learning there. And because I've talked about coaching and the leadership and those core skills I'm putting, putting in my top pick for a nice short book by Lara Hogan about those skills, resilient management. Okay. Next learning is not linear. And I think getting context is is chaotic.
[00:08:31] Rachel Collingridge: There was someone who I worked with earlier in my career. And I was amazed at the way he could be at point a and want to get to point B. And he just seemed to do that in a, in a straight line and way I learn. And the way I get from point a to point B has got lots of ups and downs. It's got lots of curls.
[00:08:50] Rachel Collingridge: It's it's a bit all over the place. And that is okay. It can be hard to realize that I think after weeks or months or years in a formal structured education you know, learning what you need to learn on the job is quite different. There's no tech boxes, there's no sort of modules to follow. That that might feel hard, so it might feel uncomfortable and it might feel chaotic.
[00:09:15] Rachel Collingridge: chaotic. I haven't got an attribution for this, but I've heard that learning is something that happens beyond your comfort zone, but just beyond. If you're like within your comfort zone with what you're learning, you know, are you learning, but if you're too far outside that might be just too stressful to absorb.
[00:09:32] Rachel Collingridge: So you want that Goldilock zone. And in terms of chaos, you, you will want to build your own path, your own structure to learn something, and you hopefully rely on the help of your peers, managers, and other experts to do that. So I think the important things here are just be patient. Give yourself time to get better trust in yourself and how you learn, because you've done this before.
[00:10:00] Rachel Collingridge: You've learned stuff before. And you know, now more now than you did before, so you can trust in yourself. I think reflecting on where you are to see how far you've come is hugely important. And I think sometimes in a continuous improvement world, We might forget to do that, but if you've got a journal that records your learning or, you know, just taking time out to understand that you've finished something or you've learned more, I think that's really important.
[00:10:31] Rachel Collingridge: And lastly, on this slide, I think creativity and just being playful with learning is super important. Read some fiction. I think I know some people that only. Like nonfiction, workbooks, boom. You know, read some nonfiction. You can really join some unexpected dots. And one of my favorite theories from Douglas Adams who wrote hitchhiker guide to universe, and this is actually from Dirk gently he talks about the fundamental connectedness of all things.
[00:11:01] Rachel Collingridge: And I think it's surprising when you are reading about a completely different topic. The conclusions that you might draw to inform what's at hand for you at work. And also it gives you great source of analogies. And I think that's, that's really important in being fun. So a couple of books here that I recommend that would support that there's a book called range which talks about how learning widely rather than narrowly brings great results.
[00:11:33] Rachel Collingridge: And think again by Adam Grant is another goodie. He talks a lot about curiosity. He talks about how important being doubtful is and questioning yourself and relearning because science and culture and everything moves on. Right. So what you learn perhaps a decade ago might need to be unlearned and relearn cuz we have new inform.
[00:11:54] Rachel Collingridge: I have a soft spot for this book as well. Cuz I, I talk about imposter syndrome in a, in a different talk and he's a quote, which is feeling like an imposter puts us in a beginner's mindset, leading us to question assumptions that others have taken for granted. So I, I think that's really cool. Like being a learner, being a beginner is actually a really powerful place to be rather than a yeah.
[00:12:19] Rachel Collingridge: Okay. Lost my words there, but I think it's a really powerful place to be. okay. Moving on. I think it's really good to have a system. Now you might have photographic memory, so this won't apply to you, but I think like for the rest of us having a system is really important so that we can record our learning.
[00:12:41] Rachel Collingridge: We can revisit it, we can share it. And we can also use it to understand progress has been. So you might want an external brain to remember stuff and look really I'm talking about taking notes and being able to find them again, that bit's quite key. So where I've landed with this is I think it's really important to write stuff down.
[00:13:07] Rachel Collingridge: and I think that using the tools that you have at least at first, like a notebook to write in or a Google docs, cuz they're, they're nice and free. Use that stuff before you go down any deep, deep rabbit holes for Evernote or obsidian or room research or all of those tools. Practice before tools ever at the top here.
[00:13:30] Rachel Collingridge: Think that's really important. There's a few learning techniques that might apply well to different situations, which you might want to look into. Space repetition is quite good for sort of exam and test type of learning. Lingo learns that a lot. It figures out what you can answer and won't, won't give you that question again, and it will concentrate on the things that you're not getting.
[00:13:53] Rachel Collingridge: Right. So that's a bit of a space repetition Zell cast in Zyl Caston probably needs its own talk. I am not the person to give that talk, but what I understand from that system of note taking is is two things. One is it's about taking notes and linking them to each other so that you can make those interesting creative, innovative connections.
[00:14:18] Rachel Collingridge: The second thing from that is that writing down ideas from any source in your own words is really important. If you're copying and pasting quotes or, you know, just, just typing what you see. That's not gonna stick like recreating things in your own words. The, the last point I've got here is about sharing notes to an audience, which can be really important.
[00:14:43] Rachel Collingridge: I think it's key to remember that one of those audience members that you're thinking about is yourself. It's future you. So the notes you record, you want to be able to find them and understand them again and future. So think of yourself as that, that future. But, you know, again, writing a blog post learning and having say blog post is part of what you do can be a great way to really consolidate your learning.
[00:15:10] Rachel Collingridge: So my suggested reading there and talking about going down rabbit holes. Well, I'm deep down the rabbit hole on a building a second brain Tiago forte is someone I followed his YouTube channel for a bit. And he's just like two weeks ago brought out a book on that subject, building a second brain.
[00:15:30] Rachel Collingridge: He uses Evernote to organize his, his life. Essentially. You don't need to do that. It's much more a, a system that can be applied to any tool. So I'm experimenting with motion. But you know how that goes. Like I said, practice before tools don't spend. A week or two on your tools before you know what you want to use it for.
[00:15:51] Rachel Collingridge: And secondly, I really like how Newport's so good. They can't ignore you, cuz it really focuses on thinking about your regular practice of learning over mulling about your distant dreams. Cause those distant dreams might be irrelevant or, or impractical. Thinking about what you do each day to learn know a little bit more is, is important.
[00:16:14] Rachel Collingridge: Building intent to what you do. Okay next. And this is important, I think for everyone as a learner, but also as as leaders in a business, like how can we give our people the the best chance to, to get learning? And I know from my perspective, I wondered for a long time, was I just a really bad procrastinator when I was sitting down to try and learn.
[00:16:42] Rachel Collingridge: So. I'm human. So I'm a bit of a procrastinator, but it's really just I, I figured out I was not sure what I was gonna do next. And so having a goal is great or maybe two or three goals, same few people, a good goal, two or three goals. But it's defining that next action, which gets you closer to your goal, which is much more important than spending a week to come up with a master plan of getting from a to B by the time you are one or two steps into that journey you might decide that in fact, you want to go to C not to B.
[00:17:15] Rachel Collingridge: So just thinking about the next thing you do so that you are sure what you want to do next. That actually for me has been half the problem with, with procrastinating. When you want to learn, I think, you know, you want to create that space where you can achieve those actions that you've defined for me.
[00:17:36] Rachel Collingridge: Although my office behind me is going to blow that fact, but everything in front of me is quite clear and quite nice is not, not too much stuff here. So that's important for me to focus. Turning off notifications is really important and look, we all know how to use well, okay. Maybe not this Chromebook I've got in front of me, but our usual tech, we know how to use it.
[00:17:55] Rachel Collingridge: Well, You know how to put yourself in focus, time to limit your notifications. There's a lot of great digital wellbeing functionality out there. So do investigate that. And another technique that you can do for yourself and support your people in doing is to, to book book out that time for learning.
[00:18:16] Rachel Collingridge: And I talked before about how learning might be say reading, you know, that's important part, you got a, an item on your backlog that you need to be working on. You expect to be writing code for it, but you know what, if you've booked out two hours and you spend 10 minutes writing code after you spend the entire rest of the time reading up on what it is you're gonna code then that is likely success.
[00:18:39] Rachel Collingridge: But booking in that focus time is really, I. And again, there's loads of tools which can encourage that traction, Pomodoro technique that 25 minute timer. That's something you can follow up if you don't know about it. That's something that I use, especially if I'm finding it difficult to start what I'm doing.
[00:18:56] Rachel Collingridge: I can do anything for 25 minutes. And by the end of my first 25 minutes, spell chances are I can go, go into a whole bunch more 25 minute session. I'm also very in love with Google's. The Google calendar focus time where you can set up a chunk of time and you can decline auto decline, any meetings that come in over the top of that.
[00:19:17] Rachel Collingridge: So no one who's booking meetings with you at short notice expects that you're gonna turn up because they auto decline has happened. So that's a cool tool. Loads more, those are just a couple of suggestions. So for keeping on track, With your learning, focusing your focus you might consider these books.
[00:19:37] Rachel Collingridge: The first one intractable written by near ER. He also wrote a book called hooked. So I find this quite interesting because he wrote about using the science of being hooked on stuff in this book hooked and then wrote about the science of trying to get away from being distracted by stuff and in distractable.
[00:19:57] Rachel Collingridge: So he, you know, used what he knew for good and for evil is, is how I think of that. But to gain traction of what you want to do, you want to be intractable and the word traction is in there. So I, I think that's quite. And secondly, I've talked about habits a bit like creating a learning habit might benefit from reading about the science of habits and James clear also BJ fog with timely habits.
[00:20:22] Rachel Collingridge: Those are a couple of books there. Okay. Last section here, a bit about self management of your learning. And this is a surprise, I think for people who enter. What I call knowledge work, whether you're a developer whether you are just in any environment where you no longer have things structured for you, you know, product owner, agile coaches.
[00:20:49] Rachel Collingridge: In any work context like that, I don't think you should expect your boss to build your learning or your growth plan for you you'll want their support and you want their sponsorship. You might need a bit of money from them to buy the books, do the courses. But that isn't something that you should be spooned or should be spoon feeding your people.
[00:21:09] Rachel Collingridge: I think you really need to be able to form those learning plans and lead them. So yeah, as a manager helping support, but you know, don't, don't write these for your people. You could however, be a good role manager and produce a really good learning plan for yourself. So I think to, to build a great learning plan, you want to really build it on reflection and feedback and coaching.
[00:21:37] Rachel Collingridge: All of those could probably just about do with their own own talk. You wanna base what you're gonna learn next based on where you are now, like where do you want to be and where are you now? Are there any gaps you don't know about? Are you getting some good critical feedback from people? So that's really important to build that, that learning plan connecting with the right people or courses or mentors or, or whatever.
[00:22:01] Rachel Collingridge: That's really important, how you're gonna get from a to B. Again, as a leader, like looking for opportunities as an individual, you wanna look for opportunities for yourself to fulfill your learning plan. But as a leader, that's something you can be, you know, you are in these different meetings, see different forums, look out for those opportunities.
[00:22:18] Rachel Collingridge: When you can match the learning that someone is doing with the opportunity that presents itself. So that's super important. And I think everyone said this before should celebrate success. Whether it's the exam that's passed or that work item, that backlog item that you didn't know how to do it at all.
[00:22:37] Rachel Collingridge: And you spent the time to learn about it and you've just delivered it. There's, there's lots of success in there to celebrate. And reading for that especially for people entering their career. I think help, I have a manager which is a Zen by Judy Evans is really cool. Gives people insight into what your manager might be up to cause in your early stage career, you may have no idea and it really encourages self-direction in leader.
[00:23:07] Rachel Collingridge: So that's a good E a bit of a surprise entry here is radical candor now, because this is around clarity of expectations because that is the root of most miscommunication and misunderstanding. I think this is quite a good, good book. Like either personally, At team level or organization working across orgs, you know, clarity of expectations is where things often go arise.
[00:23:35] Rachel Collingridge: So radical can gives you some help in I'm trying to remember the byline. Oh yeah. Care personally. So you care, but you challenge directly and it talks about how to manage those two, two axis. Okay. So that is, is five. Areas. And it's a few, few points and a bit of suggested reading about that. Those are the five, like sort of top tech items.
[00:24:02] Rachel Collingridge: I think that came to me when I was out running one weekend. So what I'm gonna do now will we'll open for Q and a, but I will stop sharing And
[00:24:15] Rachel Collingridge: we can go there. Yeah.
[00:24:18] Lauren Peate: Awesome. Thank you. So, so, so much, so first of all, just, you know, virtual round of applause for that really appreciated all your sharing and yeah, so many, so many great nuggets. So what I thought I'd do, I'll kick us off with a question and then cause I know sometimes it can be helpful to have some thinking time.
[00:24:34] Lauren Peate: So I'll kick off with one, but then any questions you have stick 'em in the chat cuz I, I have lots, but, but also this is for you all. So, so please add in other questions you have too. But yeah, to kick it off, I'm really, I really loved so many points resonated, but one I wanted to dive deeper into is that structure to help people learn and.
[00:24:54] Lauren Peate: And so one of the things that I know can be a challenge is just the Workday gets busy and, and also, you know, both for ourselves and, and also for our team members where we wanna support their learning too. It can just, it can be hard to, to make sure that that we're setting aside that time for learning.
[00:25:10] Lauren Peate: And so I love to hear a little bit more about how you thought about that structure to learn particularly around supporting your team members and, you know, be it. In your 1 0 1 conversations or in, you know, retros or what were some of the things that have helped bring that structure to make sure you kept coming back to it as a.
[00:25:31] Rachel Collingridge: I mean, I think, I think being a role model for that yourself, I mean, as a leader, you should still be learning. And so, you know, being the role model of the person who's got the two hours focus time, I think at some point I've had as my like response in Google calendar, I really need at least 5% of my week to advance what it is.
[00:25:47] Rachel Collingridge: So I know, you know, it's like, so I probably got a bit defensive there, but I need to be able to do that and stick with it. So that I can show everyone around me how important I think that is because. If I'm asking others to do it. And and I'm not doing it myself, it's just not the message that I want to do.
[00:26:05] Rachel Collingridge: So honestly, I think booking that time is so key because if you find that you're canceling it all the time, then Hey, that's a signal. And, and then you can work with your manager or, or whomever to, to preserve. now, I'm also really aware that I've said, Hey, it should happen all the time. So it's not just book out the time, but build it into what you do.
[00:26:28] Rachel Collingridge: And you know, if you've got a small task from your backlog as a developer that you're doing, you know, is it new to you? Do you need to learn around it? And so you should be able to build it into your estimate and, and see that that's valuable thing to do in order to get that backlog item progressed.
[00:26:44] Rachel Collingridge: Yeah. But. Recognizing the value being that as a role model in your team is, is really huge.
[00:26:55] Lauren Peate: That's a great example.
[00:26:56] Rachel Collingridge: Can I ask a follow up question? Yeah. Oh, and by the way, I'm sorry. I'm not following chat very much so I'm because it's distracting with everything, but yes. But go, go for it, Daniel, because out loud questions is easy yeah.
[00:27:13] Rachel Collingridge: With, with the sort of making it visible, making. More obvious and, and leading as a role model with us being so much more distributed and, and remote. Than we used to be. What are some of the ways that you make that very visible and, and, and share your learning within your team? I mean,
[00:27:33] Rachel Collingridge: I think I'll go back first again, to, to the old calendar, like, because I have my calendar open to everyone in the company and I've clearly booked stuff out as focus time, and I might put what it is that I'm, I'm learning in there. So it's really visible. If anyone wants to book time with me, you know, it's, it's there.
[00:27:50] Rachel Collingridge: As evidence, I think you know, I've talked about sharing and whether it's a blog post or whether it's just the joy of learning and it's like, wow, I was reading this book the other day and I got this great idea. You know, that's, I don't make much of an effort that just spills out naturally for me.
[00:28:08] Rachel Collingridge: but if that's not how you normally interact, then that's maybe a, a sort of habit that you can. And admit, you know, when you have had a success published, the blog post done the thing you wanted to do. And okay. An example of that would be building a second brain. The way that the stuff I've learned from CHIO forte this talk that I did today and the way I put my notes together and the way I understood where to find them again has been really key.
[00:28:38] Rachel Collingridge: So that's some recent learning of. That's you know, so , learning's probably important too. Yeah. Cool.
[00:28:48] Lauren Peate: We've got time for one more question, then we'll jump into the breakout groups. So for this last one, this is from Trish and and feel free. I'll, I'll try to share it back Trish, but if I missed anything, please jump in.
[00:28:59] Lauren Peate: But yeah, she said she's keen to hear more about how you support more junior team members to build confidence to self-manage and to also build a plan that they believe in.
[00:29:08] Rachel Collingridge: Cool. And look, I think support really key there and, and that's going to be possibly more time in the early stages. Again, with role modeling.
[00:29:17] Rachel Collingridge: Are you learning and are you doing to do someone said to me someone have us to change it as, you know, say yes, it's so hard to change what I do. So, you know, trying to help someone else do that even more. So being role model is that, that starting case? I think information, like if I'd understood that. I had more that I should be managing my own career more rather than letting someone come up with my learning plan for me, if I'd understood that 20 to 25 years ago that would've been cool.
[00:29:54] Rachel Collingridge: So I think just even having that bit of knowledge to be able to support. Good that whole feedback cycle, you know, let's make sure that we're you know, reaching out and understanding how that that junior is doing and just gently getting them into the sort of been able to give and receive feedback is really important and around feedback.
[00:30:17] Rachel Collingridge: The thing that I say all the time. When people say to me, get any feedback. So Hey, tell me about the feedback that you've been giving. And that's a, quite an interesting conversation because, you know, getting feedback I think starts with giving feedback. So I think that's something can really foster in a junior.
[00:30:35] Rachel Collingridge: When I say feedback, I mean, positive, you know, not just constructive, so supporting your junior and been enough to thank someone for You know, the learning that they've just got just any sort of situation. I think that can be really key, but I would spend more time with them to, to help them to understand that whole chaos, you know, the learning they're gonna do.
[00:30:58] Rachel Collingridge: Isn't gonna be linear just to understand that world and keep talking them to them to, to help them feel comfortable with that. Cuz it's gonna be super different than the computer science degree that they may have just stepped in from. Yeah.
[00:31:12] Lauren Peate: Lovely. So we'll shift gears, not cutting off discussion, but shift gears here. We'll stop the recording as we're gonna move into the breakout groups.
